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The Papal Supremacy

Query for the Month

of

January 2015

Next up-date: February 1st 2015 (God willing).

Previous "Queries" are available. Click here to access.

Some perpetual questions ....

Is there really an immortal soul?

Do you know the difference between the "love" that is of Christianity
and the "love" that is of the world?
Click here to find out!
 

Click on the link for a good book on the character of our God which you can download for free and share amongst your friends.   It's called "Light through Darkness" and is one of the best books on this subject that I have ever read! 

(when you get to the site just click "cancel" and it will let you in.  Then click "order" to obtain a copy. )

In the meantime, try this site.    And here's one where you can read it online.

 

Here's another great site on the character of God written in a way that's very easy to understand.

In this reply the old-fashioned words of the KJV have been modernised, and in some instances, the man-made punctuation has been altered for greater understanding.  Some of the comments are adapted from books in my library.  No recognition is given because they are not intended as authorities, but are used because they express my understanding clearly.  All the ideas expressed in this article, right or wrong, are my own.   


The query:

The period of Papal supremacy (“a time, and times, and the dividing of times” Daniel 7:25), appears in numerous places in various forms in the Bible. 

Historic Adventism has taken this to mean the 1,260 years in Europe from 538 – 1798AD and applied it accordingly wherever the term, or its equivalent, has appeared, e.g.

“time, times and half a time” Daniel 12:7; Revelation 12:14;  

“a thousand two hundred and threescore days”  Revelation 12:6; 

“forty-two months” Revelation 11:2; 13:5.

But why has the Spirit caused it to be written in these different ways? 

 

Could it be that He has “flagged” it for us so that we may ask Him just what period is He thinking about, and if they are not the same then what could they mean in the context in which they are found?

 

*************

Response:

When we look at this problem we need to remember the words of Revelation 10 where it is written:

 Revelation 10:5-6:

“And the Angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up His hand to heaven, and swore by Him that lives for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:” 

 We do not have to guess as to what He was referring to for we have the words of the Spirit of Prophecy.

 {7BC 971.6-7}  (MS 59, 1900)

The first and second angels' messages were to be proclaimed [1842-1844], but no further light was to be revealed before these messages had done their specific work. This is represented by the angel standing with one foot on the sea, proclaiming with a most solemn oath that time should be no longer. 

 This time, which the angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world's history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time.

 The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn [October] of 1844. 

 

{Christ Triumphant 340.2-3}

The message of Revelation 14, proclaiming that the hour of God’s judgment is come, is given in the time of the end [after 1798]. The angel of Revelation 10 is represented as having one foot on the sea and one foot on the land, showing that the message will be carried to distant lands, the ocean will be crossed, and the islands of the sea will hear the proclamation of the last message of warning to our world. . . . “That there should be time no longer.” This message announces the end of the prophetic periods. 

 

{2Selected Messages 108.1}

This message announces the end of the prophetic periods.

The disappointment of those who expected to see our Lord in 1844 was indeed bitter to those who had so ardently looked for His appearing.

It was in the Lord's order that this disappointment should come, and that hearts should be revealed. 

 

What this means to us is that the “day for a year” principle does not apply to prophecies which are applicable after 1844.  Which in turn means that if they are of a “time” nature then they must be taken literally. 

 So we need to determine when the other applications of “a time, and times, and the dividing of times” apply.

 We believe that the first mention of the time applies to the Papacy and its control of the world. 

 Daniel 7:24-26.

[Daniel’s interpreter said,] And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them [the little horn]; and he shall be diverse [different] from the first [for he is religious first, then political, while the others are political, then religious], and he shall subdue three kings [because of religious differences].  And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change [God’s] times and laws: and they [the saints] shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.  

 [until]

 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his [political] dominion, to consume and to destroy it to the end.   

 

We believe that the domination by the false church came to an end in 1798 and the judgment began in 1844.

 This period is mentioned again in The Revelation’s “a thousand two hundred and threescore days” of 12:6, which describes the “saints” leaving Europe during that time and going to all the world as good Sabbath-keeping Christians should do. (Matthew 16:15.) I believe that the following words can have a spiritual application here:  “Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone”, although Babylon was never part of God’s people, just a counterfeit of them. Hosea 4:17.  However, Satan was left alone to demonstrate how his “new head” (a religious one) would operate.

 There may have been isolated Sabbath-keeping Christians in Europe during that time, but on the whole it was the Sunday-keeping professed Christians who eventually agitated about the abuses in the Papal system.  But few of them ever came out of her “family”!

 This not to say that they were all lost, because we know that many who remained Sunday-keepers in those years (and even those in the present) will be judged on what they knew, not what they should have known.  He told them, “But to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not [accepted] this [false] doctrine [verses 20-23], and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.  But that which you have already hold fast till I come”.  Revelation 2:24-25.  

But they were not totally clear of blame, and in 1844 God’s people were told to leave them also.  “And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, ‘Come out of her, My people, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues’” for the second part of Babylon (her daughters) had now also fallen beyond redemption.  Revelation 14:8 and 18:4.

 Here’s what happened as told to us in a vision give about 1850:

*************** (Begin Quote)

{EW 54.2 – 55.1}

End of the 2300 Days [October 1844]

 [Emphasis added]

 

I saw a throne [in the first apartment of the heavenly sanctuary], and on it sat the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus' countenance and admired His lovely person. The Father's person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered Him. I asked Jesus if His Father had a form like Himself. He said He had, but I could not behold it, for said He, “If you should once behold the glory of His person, you would cease to exist.”

 Before the [blue] throne [of forgiveness] I saw the Advent people -- the church and the world [with its churches]. I saw two companies, one bowed down before the throne, deeply interested, while the other stood uninterested and careless. Those who were bowed before the throne would offer up their prayers and look to Jesus; then He would look to His Father, and appear to be pleading with Him.

A light would come from the Father to the Son and from the Son to the praying company. Then I saw an exceeding bright light come from the Father to the Son, and from the Son it waved over the people before the throne.

 But few would receive this great light [the midnight cry].

 [Our hopes now centered on the coming of the Lord in 1844. This was also the time for the message of the second angel, who, flying through the midst of heaven, cried, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city.” Revelation 14:8. That message was first proclaimed by the servants of God in the summer [June/July] of 1844.  As a result, many left the fallen churches. In connection with this message the “midnight cry” [See Matthew 25:1-13.] was given: “Behold, the Bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet Him.”  {Christian Experience and Teachings 50.4}]

Many came out from under it and immediately resisted it; others were careless and did not cherish the light, and it moved off from them. Some cherished it, and went and bowed down with the little praying company. This company all received the light and rejoiced in it, and their countenances shone with its glory.

 I saw the Father rise from the throne [she saw the Light move], and in a flaming chariot go into the holy of holies within the veil [the second apartment], and sit down [on the white throne of judgment and cleansing.  Daniel 7:9.]

 Then [a little later] Jesus [as the Bridegroom] rose up from the [blue] throne [in the first apartment], and the most of those who were bowed down arose with Him. I did not see one ray of light pass from Jesus to the careless multitude after He arose, and they were left in perfect darkness.

 Those who arose when Jesus did, kept their eyes fixed on Him as He left the throne and led them out a little way [in fulfilment of Daniel 8:14.]  Then He raised His right arm, and we heard His lovely voice saying, “Wait here; I am going to My Father [in the second apartment] to receive the kingdom [Daniel 7:13]; keep your garments spotless [by confession and cleansing], and in a little while I will return from the wedding and receive you to Myself.”  . . .

 [Luke 12:32-37.

Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.   

Sell that you have, and give alms [help others]; provide yourselves bags [wallets] which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that fails not, where no thief approaches, neither moth corrupts.  For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Let your loins be girded about [be dressed for ACTION], and your lights burning; and you yourselves like to men that wait for their LORD, when He will return from the wedding; that when He comes and knocks, they may open to Him immediately.

Blessed are those servants, whom the LORD when He comes shall find watching: verily I say to you, that He shall gird Himself, and make them to sit down to meat [the wedding breakfast], and will come forth and serve them.]

Those who rose up with Jesus would send up their faith to Him in the holiest [the second apartment], and pray, “My Father, give us Thy Spirit [forgive and blot out our sins, for both actions now came from there].” Then Jesus would breathe upon them the Holy Ghost. In that breath was light, power, and much love, joy, and peace. [Consider Revelation 14:12.]

I turned to look at the company [of rejecters] who were still bowed before the throne [of forgiveness only, in the first apartment]; they did not know that Jesus had left it [and that there was no relief to be had there any more]. Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on [an imitation of] the work of God. I saw them look up to the throne, and pray, “Father, give us Thy Spirit [forgive us our sins].” Satan would then breathe upon them an unholy influence; in it there was light and much power, but no sweet love, joy, and peace.

Satan's object was to keep them deceived, and to draw back and deceive God's children [with a false gospel – just believe and you are forgiven].

[I also stated that “Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God”. I will give another sentence from the same page: “I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne”. Now this praying company was in this mortal state, on the earth, yet represented to me as bowed before the throne. I never had the idea that these individuals were actually in the New Jerusalem. Neither did I ever think that any mortal could suppose that I believed that Satan was actually in the New Jerusalem. But did not John see the great red dragon in heaven? Certainly. “And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns”. Revelation 12:3. What a monster to be in heaven! Here seems to be as good a chance for ridicule as in the interpretation which some have placed upon my statements.  {EW 92.2}]

*************** (End Quote)

 

Satan’s agents were simply saying that the old way is still the right way.

But a little further into the prophecy of Revelation 12 the situation is vastly different to the exodus of verse 6.  In verse 14 God’s church is given extra help and speed to escape the “serpent/dragon” because it is the end time (after 1844), when the dragon is “wroth” with the remnant of her seed for a “time, times and half a time”. 

That means that this prophetic “time” should be taken literally and it becomes three and a half years of ordinary time. 

The Son of God explained this to Daniel:

Daniel 12:7-10:

And I heard the Man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river [standing on the water], when He held up His right hand and His left hand to heaven, and swore by Him that lives for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half; and when [after] he [Satan] shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished [the end will come]

And I heard, but I understood not [are God’s people to be beaten in the end?]: then said I, “O my LORD, what shall be the end of these things?”  And He said, “Go your way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end [after 1798]. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked [the rejecters] shall understand; but the wise shall understand [for it will be like the time of the crucifixion]”.  

In like manner, the “forty-two months” of Revelation 13:5 should be seen as literal, for they are AFTER the revival of the Papal system [not by the Papacy alone], but through the “image” of the beast, which is Catholicism, Protestantism and Spiritualism combined.

{GC 588.1}  

The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union [the three unclean spirits, Revelation 16:13], this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience.

Then the following prophecy will be fulfilled: 

Revelation 13:4-5:

“And I saw one of his [the beast’s] heads [the fifth] as it were wounded to death [when the Reformation began and it was protested that the Roman Catholic church was NOT, and never had been, Christian. The wounding continued with the publication of the King James Version of the Bible in 1611, and terminated with the loss of political power in 1798.]

And [then] his deadly wound was healed [as it is being today, under the 6th head]: and all the world wondered after [admired] the beast [with its new-type Popes].  And they worshipped the dragon [Satan] which gave power to the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, “Who is like to the beast?  Who is able to make war with him?” [Because he had “made war through the 7th and 8th heads with the saints” and “overcome them” physical and spiritually, just as at the crucifixion when the disciples mourned.  Revelation 13:7; Luke 24:21.]   

And there was given to him [in the 8th head of the beast] a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given to him to continue forty-two months [after the healing is complete].   

 

{GC 608.3} 

In this time of persecution the faith of the Lord's servants will be tried. They have faithfully given the warning, looking to God and to His word alone. God's Spirit, moving upon their hearts, has constrained them to speak [in the loud cry].

Stimulated with holy zeal, and with the divine impulse strong upon them, they entered upon the performance of their duties without coldly calculating the consequences of speaking to the people the word which the Lord had given them. They have not consulted their temporal interests, nor sought to preserve their reputation or their lives.

Yet when the storm of opposition and reproach bursts upon them, some, overwhelmed with consternation, will be ready to exclaim: “Had we foreseen the consequences of our words, we would have held our peace.” They are hedged in with difficulties. Satan assails them with fierce temptations. The work which they have undertaken seems far beyond their ability to accomplish. They are threatened with destruction.

The enthusiasm which animated them is gone; yet they cannot turn back. Then, feeling their utter helplessness, they flee to the Mighty One for strength. They remember that the words which they have spoken were not theirs, but His who bade them give the warning. God put the truth into their hearts, and they could not forbear to proclaim it. 

Luke 18: 18:7-8:

“And shall not God avenge His own elect, which cry day and night to Him [my God, my God, why have You forsaken me?], though He bear long with them [and seems to ignore them]? I tell you that He will avenge them [as] speedily [as He can].  Nevertheless when the Son of man comes, shall He find faith [like the widow’s] on the earth?” 

Lateral thought:

The word “beast” [an animal] in the Bible describes human nature – a fighting beast to represent the rejecters of God’s grace, and a peaceful one (a lamb) to picture God’s people.

 

Now the last mention of the period in the query:

Revelation 11:1-3:

“And there was given me a reed like to a rod [the straight edge of the Ten Commandments]: and the Angel stood, saying, ‘Rise, and measure the temple of God [find the right church], and the altar [find the right gospel], and them that worship therein [check for yourself that their gospel works].   

But the court which is without the temple leave out and measure it not [for it represents the earth]; for it is given to the Gentiles [the rejecters]: and the holy city [the church of God] shall they tread under foot forty-two months [three and a half years].   

And [during that time] I will give power to My two witnesses [the Old and the New Testaments], and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days [three and a half years], clothed in sackcloth [in miserable conditions like those of the French Revolution’s “reign of terror” when religion was proscribed].   

[Concerning the two witnesses the prophet declares further: “These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth”. “Thy word,” said the psalmist, “is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path”. Revelation 11:4; Psalm 119:105. The two witnesses represent the Scriptures of the Old and the New Testament. Both are important testimonies to the origin and perpetuity of the law of God. Both are witnesses also to the plan of salvation. The types, sacrifices, and prophecies of the Old Testament point forward to a Saviour to come. The Gospels and Epistles of the New Testament tell of a Saviour who has come in the exact manner foretold by type and prophecy.  {GC 267.1}]

Thus we see that the types of persecutions of the 1,260 years in Europe are, in the near future, to be compressed into 3 years and repeated in the last days all over the world.

This is what Jesus tells us:

*************** (Begin Quote)

Matthew 24:

3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when shall these things be?  And what shall be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the world?” 

4 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in My name, saying, ‘I am Christ [Christian]’; and shall deceive many.

6 And you shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that you be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows [for they will be physical].   

9 Then shall they [the people of the beast] deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you [not for ignoring Sunday, but for observing the Sabbath, a spiritual sin in their eyes]: and you shall be hated of ALL nations for My name [character]'s sake.

10 And then shall many be offended [in the church], and shall betray one another [in the church], and shall hate one another [in the church]. 11 And many false prophets shall rise [in the church], and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound [in the church], the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world [through the loud cry given in the courts of the nations] for a witness to all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation [that which leads to the second death], spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso reads, let him understand:) 16 then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains [to be cared for by God] . . .   

*************** (End Quote)

 

{DA 628.1}

Christ's words had been spoken in the hearing of a large number of people; but when He was alone, Peter, John, James, and Andrew came to Him as He sat upon the Mount of Olives. “Tell us,” they said, “when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

Jesus did not answer His disciples by taking up separately the destruction of Jerusalem and the great day of His coming. He mingled the description of these two events.

Had He opened to His disciples future events as He beheld them, they would have been unable to endure the sight. In mercy to them He blended the description of the two great crises, leaving the disciples to study out the meaning for themselves.

When He referred to the destruction of Jerusalem, His prophetic words reached beyond that event to the final conflagration in that day when the Lord shall rise out of His place to punish the world for their iniquity, when the earth shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

This entire discourse was given, not for the disciples only, but for those who should live in the last scenes of this earth's history.

 

To complete the picture, we read:

Revelation 11:14-19:

“The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe comes quickly.    

“And the seventh [the last] angel sounded [his trumpet]; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, ‘The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our LORD, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever’. [Probation has closed for the world.  Revelation 10:7.]    

“And the twenty-four elders [the leaders in the church], which sat before God on their seats [Revelation 4:4], fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, saying, ‘We give You thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which are, and were, and are to come; because You have taken to You Your great power, and have reigned [as You used to].    

“And the nations [the rejecters] were angry [in the past for 3 years], and Your wrath is come [the seven last plagues are falling], and the time of the dead, that they should be judged [is finished], and that You should [soon] give reward to Your servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Your name, small and great [by resurrecting them]; and should destroy them which destroy the earth’. [This is accomplished by the power of the Second Advent.  Revelation 6:14-17.]    

“And [after that] the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament [which contains the Ten Commandments]: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great [7th plague] hail [as He spoke them]”.     

 

Hebrews 12:25-29:

[We are also told] See that you refuse not Him that speaks [now].  For if they escaped not who refused Him that spoke [the Ten Commandments] on earth [at Mount Sinai], much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from Him that speaks from heaven: whose voice then shook the earth: but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven”. [Haggai 2:6.] 

And this word, “Yet [only] once more”, signifies [means] the [final] removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are [man] made, that [only] those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: for our God is a consuming fire.   

 

{GC 640.2} 

The voice of God [the Father] is heard from heaven, declaring the day and hour of Jesus' coming, and delivering the everlasting covenant [the Ten Commandments] to His people. Like peals of loudest thunder His words roll through the earth. The Israel of God stand listening, with their eyes fixed upward. Their countenances are lighted up with His glory, and shine as did the face of Moses when he came down from Sinai. The wicked cannot look upon them. And when the blessing is pronounced on those who have honored God by keeping His Sabbath holy, there is a mighty shout of victory. 

 

Conclusion:

The period of Papal supremacy (“a time, and times, and the dividing of times” Daniel 7:25), appears in numerous places in various forms in the Bible. 

Historic Adventism has taken this to mean the 1,260 years in Europe from 538 – 1798AD and applied it accordingly wherever the term, or its equivalent, has appeared, e.g.

“time, times and half a time” Daniel 12:7; Revelation 12:14;  

“a thousand two hundred and threescore days”  Revelation 12:6; 

“forty-two months” Revelation 11:2; 13:5.

But why has the Spirit caused it to be written in these different ways? 

 

oooOooo

 


Who wants to add (or subtract!) from these thoughts? I won't argue as I have stated,

but I will publish your Scriptures so that we may review all the words of God on the subject.

 

Next query. To be discussed from February 1st 2015,

 

Next query:

Why is the beast of Revelation 13:2 part leopard, part bear and part lion? 

 

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