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Dinosaurs and the Bible

Query for the Month

of

January 2018

Next up-date: February 1st 2018 (God willing).

Previous "Queries" are available. Click here to access.

 

This article is available as a PDF file here.    Or as a WORD doc.

Some perpetual questions ....

Is there really an immortal soul?

Do you know the difference between the "love" that is of Christianity
and the "love" that is of the world?
Click here to find out!
 

Click on the link for a good book on the character of our God which you can download and share amongst your friends.   It's called "Light through Darkness" and is one of the best books on this subject that I have ever read! 

In the meantime, try this site.   

 

Here's another great site on the character of God written in a way that's very easy to understand.

In this reply the old-fashioned words of the KJV have been modernised, and in some instances, the man-made punctuation has been altered for greater understanding.  Some of the comments are adapted from books in my library.  No recognition is given because they are not intended as authorities, but are used because they express my understanding clearly.  All the ideas expressed in this article, right or wrong, are my own.   


Query:

There is no doubt that the dinosaurs lived, but where did they come from and why did they die out?

Response:

I agree with you that dinosaurs once lived and that they have now become extinct (about 65 million years ago according to fossil hunters!), but where did they come from?  One of the standard answers is that men modified a creature (or creatures) and made it (them) into the variety of animals which we call dinosaurs, or terrible lizards.  Why?  Because they could use them for sport and food!  These gave rise to the stories of “dragons” and the battles with them.

This is undoubtedly true, but that simply begs the question, as the saying goes, for where did the originals come from?  Men (and Satan) can only modify or genetically engineer mutations, but cannot produce the spark of life because that requires the breath of God.  And what did these dinosaurs look like? Most of the illustrations we have of them are just that, man-made “illustrations” or artists’ (mis)conceptions of what they MIGHT have looked like!  We still have mules (donkey and horse cross), and the occasional liger and tigon (mixtures of lions and tigers) among us and we know what they look like.

Image result for cockatriceThe fossil-hunters tell us that the average size of those which are called dinosaurs was about that of a turkey, and that only a few were very large, but public attention has focussed on them. (See note 3. We can count the number of very large species living on earth right now, those over the size of the big cats, on the fingers of our hands.)  Many of the fossil animals laid eggs and hatched them out in nests.  There is ample and indisputable proof for these statements, just Google them to find out.

 

 

I believe there is only one clear answer in the Bible, and that is supplied quite openly by the LORD God and so it has direct authority.  He tells us that He made the originals on the day He made Adam and pronounced them “very good”!  Genesis 1:24-26; 31. 

You may also notice that He expected Job to be familiar with this living creature in his lifetime sometime AFTER the Flood.  Some of the dinosaurs may seem to have been quite large to us, but we need to remember that the people before and just after the Flood were much taller than us today, and that we can handle the present living large ones (to us) reasonably easily.

Job 40:

6 Then answered the LORD to Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 

7 “Gird up your loins now like a man: I will demand of you, and declare you to Me” . . .

15 Behold now behemoth [one of the larger varieties], which I made with you [mankind]; he eats grass as an ox [he is a vegetarian]. 16 [Yet] Lo now, his strength is in his loins [his hips and legs], and his force is in the navel of his belly [his six pack abs?]. 17 He moves his tail like a cedar [tree, for it large and strong]: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.

19 He is the chief of the ways [chief of the animals] of God: [but] He that made him can make His sword to approach to him [can control him]

20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food [the grass], where all the beasts of the field play. 21 He lies under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens. 22 The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about. 

23 Behold, he drinks up a river, and hastes not: he trusts that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth. 24 He takes it with his eyes: his nose pierces through snares. 

This description is even clearer in another version:

Job 40:6-24The Message (MSG)

6-7 God addressed Job next from the eye of the storm [the energy field that surrounds Him], and this is what he said:

“I have some more questions for you,
    and I want straight answers . . .

 15-24 “Look at the land [air breathing] beast, Behemoth.

I created him as well as you.
    Grazing on grass, docile as a cow—
Just look at the strength of his back,
    the powerful muscles of his belly.
His tail sways like a cedar in the wind;
    his huge legs are like beech trees.
His skeleton is made of steel,
    every bone in his body hard as steel.

Most magnificent of all my creatures,
    but I still lead him around like a lamb!
The grass-covered hills serve him meals,
    while field mice frolic in his shadow.
He takes afternoon naps under shade trees,
    cools himself in the reedy swamps,
Lazily cool in the leafy shadows
    as the breeze moves through the willows.

And when the river rages he doesn’t budge,
    stolid and unperturbed even when the Jordan goes wild.
But you’d never want him for a pet—
    you’d never be able to housebreak him!”

The Message (MSG)

Copyright 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson

The idea that some teachers have that this can mean elephants or even hippopotamuses just does not stand up to scrutiny.  Consider the tail for instance – nothing like that on those animals!

There is a reference in verse 22 which tells us that some of them like to move about in water which is what the fossil-hunters also tell us.  Here’s an interesting site to read about them, so long as we remember that much of the detail is made up in their imaginations, as are the millions of years that they attribute to the species.

            http://www.kids-dinosaurs.com/swimming-dinosaurs.html

It is interesting how they do the age reckoning.  In most cases the fossil bones the palaeontologists find indicate that the animals suddenly appeared as adults in certain rock formations, and they claim that the geologists tell them the ages of those rocks.  However, if we ask the geologists how they know the age of the rocks, they tell us that the fossil-hunters declare them to be so by the bones and shells they find in them!

It is circular reasoning at its worst, but is mostly accepted without question.

While we are on this subject have a look at note 1 for a present-day sabre-toothed animal!

The LORD carries on in the next chapter of the book of Job with another large creature, this time in the sea.  (See note 2.)

    Job 41:

1 Can you draw out leviathan with a hook?  Or his tongue with a cord which you let down [a fishing line]2 Can you put a hook into his nose?  Or bore his jaw through with a thorn [a drill]?

3 Will he make many supplications to you?  Will he speak soft words to you?  4 Will he make a covenant with you [like a cat or a dog]? Will you take him for a servant for ever? 5 Will you play with him as with a bird?  Or will you bind him for your maidens [for your daughters as a pet]?

 6 Shall the companions [your friends] make a banquet of him?  Shall they part him [sell his body pieces] among the merchants?

 7 Can you fill his skin with barbed irons?  Or his head with fish spears?

8 Lay your hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more. 9 Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?

 10 None [no one] is so fierce that dare stir him up:

                             who then is able to stand before Me [who made him]

 Let’s try The Message version again:

                     I Run This Universe

41 1-11 “Or can you pull in the sea beast, Leviathan, with a fly rod
    and stuff him in your creel [fishing basket]?
Can you lasso him with a rope,
    or snag him with an anchor?

Will he beg you over and over for mercy,
    or flatter you with flowery speech?
Will he apply for a job with you
    to run errands and serve you the rest of your life?
Will you play with him as if he were a pet goldfish?
    Will you make him the mascot of the neighborhood children?
Will you put him on display in the market
    and have shoppers haggle over the price?

Could you shoot him full of arrows like a pin cushion,
    or drive harpoons into his huge head?

If you so much as lay a hand on him,
    you won’t live to tell the story.
What hope would you have with such a creature?
    Why, one look at him would do you in!

If you can’t hold your own against his glowering visage,
    how, then, do you expect to stand up to me?
Who could confront me and get by with it?
    I’m in charge of all this—I run this universe!

The Message (MSG)

Copyright 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson

Have a look at this page too!

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2010/07/everything-i-thought-i-knew-about-velociraptors-was-a-lie/

Now you can make up your own mind regarding these terrible lizards.  If, as He tells us, God made them on the 5th and 6th days of creation (Genesis 1:20-27, then representatives of the land originals would have been on the ark with Noah.  The man-made ones, i.e. individuals reared by human breeding plans, the bones of which we seem to find all over the earth, were obviously not in the ark.

Natural selection will develop some differences, and men’s imaginations will produce others (some scientists used to think that pink or scarlet Ibis of South America were a separate species from the white ones of North America.  They have classified 28 living species of them and two extinct ones!)

So then, if the God-made species of land dinosaurs survived the Flood and came away from the ark and multiplied, where are they now?  We have only to think of the American buffalo and how quickly they disappeared under the guns of the early Europeans.   “Between 1830 and 1870 the buffalo population in the United States declined drastically. While buffalo were once hunted on the eastern seaboard of the continent in early colonial times, they had vanished from east of the Mississippi by 1832.  By the middle of the 1870s buffalo were gone from their ranges on the Southern Plains as well”.  Timeline for the Buffalo (American Bison) https://www.joslyn.org/Post/sections/375/Files/Buffalo%20Timeline.pdf

Or the giant moa birds of New Zealand who were exterminated by the Maori by the early 1400’s without the use of guns – they often used fire.

https://phys.org/news/2014-11-zealand-moa-exterminated-extremely-low-density.html

A new study suggests that the flightless birds named moa were completely extinct by the time New Zealand's human population had grown to two and half thousand people at most.

The new findings, which appear in the prestigious journal Nature Communications, incorporate results of research by international teams involved in two major projects led by Professor Richard Holdaway (Palaecol Research Ltd and University of Canterbury) and Mr Chris Jacomb (University of Otago), respectively.

The researchers calculate that the Polynesians whose activities caused moa extinction in little more than a century had amongst the lowest human population densities on record. They found that during the peak period of moa hunting, there were fewer than 1500 Polynesian settlers in New Zealand, or about 1 person per 100 square kilometres, one of the lowest population densities recorded for any pre-industrial society.

They found that the human population could have reached about 2500 by the time moa went extinct. For several decades before then moa would have been rare luxuries . . . Chris Jacomb explains: “The analyses showed that the sites were all first occupied - and the people began eating moa - after the major Kaharoa eruption of Mt Tarawera of about 1314 CE [1314AD].” . . .

The researchers note that it is often suggested that people could not have caused the extinction of megafauna such as the mammoths and giant sloths of North America and the giant marsupials of Australia, because the human populations when the extinctions happened were too small.

Prof Holdaway and Mr Jacomb say that the extinction of the New Zealand terrestrial megafauna of moa, giant eagle, and giant geese, accomplished by the direct and indirect activities of a very low-density human population, shows that population size can no longer be used as an argument against human involvement in extinctions elsewhere.


https://onekindplanet.org/top-10/extinct/

Animal extinctions may be caused by natural occurrences such as climatic heating or cooling or changes in sea levels. In more modern times, however, human activity has been to blame. Habitat destruction as farming land expands and forests are cut-down is the main cause of modern extinctions, along with pollution, the introduction of alien species, and over fishing or hunting. Increasingly, however, climate change is thought to be driving extinctions . . .

    Passenger Pigeon

Native to North America, the Passenger or Wild Pigeon has been extinct since the early 20th century. It is estimated that between 3 and 5 billion Passenger Pigeons inhabited the US when Europeans arrived in North America, but their settlement led to mass deforestation resulting in habitat loss and a reduction in the bird population. By the 19th century pigeon meat was commercialized as a cheap food for the poor, which resulted in hunting on a massive scale. The Passenger Pigeon died out in the wild by around 1900, with the last known individual dying in captivity in 1914.

Then there were the Dodo, the Ibex, the Tasmanian Tiger, the Woolly Mammoth, and many others.  (The last of the isolated woolly mammoth populations is believed to have vanished from Wrangel Island in the Arctic Ocean around 1700BC.)

    {2Selected Messages 288.2} 

Christ never planted the seeds of death in the system. Satan planted these seeds when he tempted Adam to eat of the tree of knowledge which meant disobedience to God. Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord's great garden, but after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. In the parable of the sower the question was asked the master, “Didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?” The master answered, “An enemy hath done this” (Matthew 13:27, 28). 

All tares are sown by the evil one [with the help of some men and selective propagations.]   Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares. 

    {1Spirit of Prophecy 78.2-3} 

Every species of animals which God had created was preserved in the ark. The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of amalgamation [selective breeding], were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood, there has been [a continuing] amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals [especially dogs], and in certain races of men.  {1SP 78.2}

After Noah had come forth from the ark, he looked around upon the powerful and ferocious beasts which he brought out of the ark, and then upon his family numbering eight, and was greatly afraid that they would be destroyed by the beasts. But the Lord sent his angel to say to Noah, “The fear of you, and the dread of you, shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hands are they delivered. Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.” [Genesis 9:1-3.] {1SP 78.3} 

Previous to this time God had given man no permission to eat animal food . . . [But some antediluvians certainly would have.  Genesis 6:5.] {1SP 79.1} 

We should always remember that when God “permits” He is responding to a desire on the part of the creature.  It is not necessarily His desire.

    {1SP 80.2} 

In the time of the flood the people, and beasts also, gathered to the highest points of land, and as the waters returned from off the earth, dead bodies were left upon high mountains and upon the hills, as well as upon the plains. Upon the surface of the earth were the bodies of men and beasts.

But God would not have these to remain upon the face of the earth to decompose and pollute the atmosphere, therefore he made of the earth a vast burying ground. He caused a powerful wind to pass over the earth for the purpose of drying up the waters, which moved them with great force--in some instances carrying away the tops of the mountains like mighty avalanches, forming huge hills and high mountains where there were none to be seen before, and burying the dead bodies with trees, stones, and earth. [Genesis 8:1.]

These mountains and hills increased in size and became more irregular in shape by collections of stones, ledges, trees, and earth, which were driven upon and around them. The precious wood, stone, silver and gold, that had made rich and adorned the world before the flood, and which the inhabitants had idolized, was sunk beneath the surface of the earth. The waters which had broken forth with such great power [like tsunamis], had moved earth and rocks, and heaped them upon earth's treasures, and in many instances formed mountains above them to hide them from the sight and search of men. 

Conclusion:

Much of what we read about dinosaurs is actually stories made up by well-meaning men and women who see the scanty evidence and interpret it differently from the Bible reader.  But mostly it’s guesswork.  So don’t accept all you read – without checking with the Bible.

 

oooOooo

 

 Here is a good example of an alternative interpretation:

Note 1:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musk_deer

Musk deer can refer to any one, or all seven, of the species that make up Moschus, the only extant [living] genus of the family Moschidae.[1] The musk deer family differs from cervids, or true deer, by lacking antlers and facial glands and by possessing only a single pair of teats, a gallbladder, a caudal gland, a pair of tusk-like teeth and—of particular economic importance to humans—a musk gland.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/Porte_musc_global.jpg/220px-Porte_musc_global.jpgMusk deer live mainly in forested and alpine scrub habitats in the mountains of southern Asia, notably the Himalayas.  Moschids, the proper term when referring to this type of deer rather than one/multiple species of musk deer, are entirely Asian in their present distribution,

     Skull showing teeth                  being extinct in Europe where the earliest musk deer are known to have existed from Oligocene deposits . . .

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/Moschus_moschiferus_in_Plzen_zoo_%2812.02.2011%29.jpg/220px-Moschus_moschiferus_in_Plzen_zoo_%2812.02.2011%29.jpg

 

 

Musk deer resemble small deer with a stocky build, and hind legs longer than their front legs. They are about 80 to 100 cm (31 to 39 in) long, 50 to 70 cm (20 to 28 in) high at the shoulder, and weigh between 7 and 17 kg (15 and 37 lb). The feet of musk deer are adapted for climbing in rough terrain. Like the Chinese water deer, a cervid, they have no antlers, but the males do have enlarged upper canines, forming sabre-like tusks. The dental formula is similar to that of true deer: 0.1.3.33.1.3.3

 

 

 

                                                         Siberian musk deer

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Zwerghirsch-Micromeryx-Rekonstruktion.jpg/220px-Zwerghirsch-Micromeryx-Rekonstruktion.jpg                                                      The musk gland is found only in adult males.

 

 

It lies in a sac located between the genitals and the umbilicus, and its secretions are most likely used to attract mates.

                                                                                                     On the right is a reconstruction of the extinct genus, Micromeryx.       

Musk deer are herbivores, living in hilly, forested environments, generally far from human habitation. Like true deer, they eat mainly leaves, flowers, and grasses, with some mosses and lichens. They are solitary animals, and maintain well-defined territories, which they scent mark with their caudal glands. Musk deer are generally shy, and either nocturnal [active in darkness], Micromeryx or crepuscular [active in half-light, dawn and dusk].

Males leave their territories during the rutting season, and compete for mates, using their tusks as weapons. Female musk deer give birth to a single fawn after about 150–180 days. The newborn young are very small, and essentially motionless for the first month of their lives, a feature that helps them remain hidden from predators.[2] . . .

 Back

Note 2:

https://www.google.co.nz/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=nVfLWMmkEO7DXqPoqIAP#q=water+dinosaurs&*

There were many aquatic reptiles that lived during the time of the dinosaurs, including plesiosaursnothosaurs, and mosasaurs. (pronounced plee-zee-oh-SAWRS) Plesiosaurs (meaning “near lizard”) were flippered marine reptiles from the Mesozoic Era - they were not dinosaurs.  BACK

 

Note 3Let’s look at T Rex

https://www.quora.com/Paleontology-How-many-complete-individual-Tyrannosaurus-Rex-skeletons-have-been-found

Paleontology:

How many complete individual Tyrannosaurus Rex skeletons have been found?  Nobody seems to know this answer and yet we supposedly have such an abundance of information on the creature.  Have 3 specimens been found? 30? 100? 1200? . . .

Laura Cooper, Bio-science enthusiast, feminist, socialist.

Written Aug 29, 2014

For a start, no complete T. rex skeleton has been found, as with almost all large pre-historical animals. The nearest to complete specimen we have is Sue  (SUE the T. rex), who is 85% complete. Some of the less complete specimens are listen [listed?] on this wikipedia page (Specimens of Tyrannosaurus), and they are 60% or less complete.

There are around 50 [individual] specimens of T. rex known, most of them are considerably incomplete.  We honestly don't know a lot about T. rex, as it has taken paleontologists a long time to discover that they were feathered, and we are not even sure about sexual dimorphism in T. rex (see Ian York's answer to Would it be possible to tell the sex of a T. Rex from a distance? [like a bull and a cow] What sort of genitalia may they (theropods in general) have had? )

The “small” arms on T. Rex were actually about the size of a man’s legs, and would have been as useful to them as the small arms of a kangaroo are to it!

 

http://images.dinosaurpictures.org/15_walters_tyrannosaurus_060a.jpg                                Kangaroo, Australia, Wildlife, Nature

http://dinosaurpictures.org/Tyrannosaurus-pictures                                        https://pixabay.com/en/photos/kangaroo/

 

                                                                    

                                                             Kangaroo Fight

                                               http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=7195          BACK

 

 

 

 Who wants to add (or subtract!) from these thoughts? I won't argue as I have stated, but I will publish your Scriptures so that we may review all the words of God on the subject.

Next query. To be discussed from February 1st 2018

 Query:

    Genesis 11:

5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6 And the LORD said, “Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

7 “Go to [come on], let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech”.

 

What really happened at Babel?  Did God interfere in men’s affairs after the rules of engagement said that He wouldn’t!!  He said from the beginning that sin itself would demonstrate to the eyes what He could not talk into the minds of the people.  Then the two together would settle the truth.


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